Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
480
   |
Posted - 2014.12.12 04:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
The heavy weapons aren't better than light weapons. They are different. Put a heavy with an HMG on ambush in the open field. See how well he/she does...
Put a heavy with a forgegun in a building, see how well he/she does....
I have snuck up on someone in my Min Heavy, and burst HMGed em in the back. And then I get hatemail about how my gun is OP or ezmode.
Seriously? You are standing still shooting your Combat rifle across the map and are pissed that a HMG melted you...when you are stationary?
And that's what a lot of the complaints about heavies boil down to. People engage heavies head to head at 15 meters and die and its unfair.
The people who don't complain about heavies (and aren't heavy themselves) either outrange heavies, splash damage them down (not as hard as people like to make pretend), set RE traps, shotgun/NK them, or hit them in the back.
I'll say this -- the fact that the VAST majority of objective fights being indoors really gives the heavy way to much of a map advantage. We need far more in the way of open objectives that heavies simply can't cover. |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
497
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 23:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
pagl1u M wrote:I ll just leave this here, maybe it ll let someone open his eyes CCP Rattati wrote:That's probably why Missile launchers on Pythons as a combo rank number 4 in PC kills, and the Proto XT-1 Missile Launcher ranks top 4 of PC kills, for the last two weeks
Kills
Weapons, Heavy, Heavy Machine Guns, Prototype, Boundless Heavy Machine Gun
Weapons, Light, Shotguns, Prototype, Duvolle Specialist Shotgun
Weapons, Light, Shotguns, Prototype, CreoDron Shotgun
Turrets, Missile, Small, Prototype, XT-1 Missile Launcher
Weapons, Light, Combat Rifles, Prototype, Six Kin Assault Combat Rifle
Weapons, Heavy, Heavy Machine Guns, Prototype, Six Kin Burst Heavy Machine Gun
Weapons, Light, Rail Rifles, Prototype, Kaalakiota Rail Rifle
I remember that list. Before that list dropped heavies were not spammed in Pubs and heavy complaints were far and few between. One could even argue that being told something is the best makes people think it is the best. Equally possible that heavy is the best (objectively) and that people being told it was the best went and tried it out saying "Hey! These kick ass!" I'm not really sure tbh.
But lets take this list at face value. Heavy gets the most kills. (Even though Ratta put this up in discussion about Assault Dropships.) So it must be OP. Here is the proof right? And according to this list the Assault CR outperforms the Burst HMG AND the RR (before RR nerf). So the RR got a nerf, obviously the ACR needs a nerf too as it is not only BETTER than that OP weapon but also because it is better than the OP (as you yourself said) HMG below it. And shotguns. We gotta nerf shotguns because everyone KNOWS they are OP.
(Why would CCP nerf the weakest weapon on the list? Wierd) Oh wait -- context. Maybe context is needed.
So lets look at the context. What you said earlier, is true. In PC Heavies are spammed for defense and offense. In pubs and FW the heavy spam has steadily increased too. We have even had a few intelligent and thoughtful (even if I disagree with some of them) posts on what we should change on the heavy and HMG. Some of them are quite bold. So obviously something is amiss.
But when some of the less subjectively biased members of the community ask their peers "What makes the heavy and the HMG op?" many answers are given that don't take context into consideration, ignore other factors about the suit/gun, or are just plain wrong. ("I got killed by an HMG at 65m! OBVIOUSLY it is OP! [ok I was at 20 HP at the time from a sniper -- but STILL it shouldn't have been able to do 1 damage to me!] #rage")
That last is pretty rare of course. Regardless I have RARELY see a member of the 'Heavies/HMGs too powerful' club even acknowledge that HMGs/Heavies are useless outside of 30-40 meters. I have NEVER seen those guys acknowledge lack of strafe and large hitbox (and extra large head hitbox) meaning the heavy actually takes MORE damage from incoming fire than an assault. (you know that problem with scouts where they don't take damage sometimes? Heavies have the inverse of that.)
What I HAVE noticed is that people DO acknowledge that objective points are SUPER heavy friendly. People like yourself DO mention that heavies have weaknesses that are pretty much nullified by the TONS of CQC around objectives. In fact that is a favorite arguement. " I CAN'T outrange heavies! They are always inside -- where all the objectives ARE!!!1!one!"
 But heavies are pretty ****** outside of CQC. In fact they are the weakest suit in the game outside of CQC. So it is both concerning and flabbergasting to me to hear people say "We have to nerf heavies in CQC so other classes have a chance at assaulting these CQC points." That statement in and of itself provides a suggestion (one that I disagree with) but provides a fair and respectable opinion about the current situation. This is because if you nerf heavies down to be as strong as assaults in CQC and heavies are useless out in the open, then the heavy is now inferior to all other suits. The point of being a heavy (except forgegun! I can go rooftop forgegun camp I guess! Let's promote THAT  ) goes away. I can switch to an assault (Amarr or Gal need only apply) and ARMOR stack and get a logi to rep me like they did heavies and just burn people down with light weapons. But it's not an HMG killing you so it's cool I guess?
Pretty much every person I have seen on the forum that has an open and reasonable mind as WELL as the closed minded folks have acknowledged the fact that CQC is where all the points are.
 So why nerf the suit so that it literally becomes pointless (on par in CQC -- weak at range -- run assault for same results inside and better results outside -- so literally pointless) when you could change the cap points to not all be in CQC? Why not just make 75% of the points out in the open so that heavies CAN be outranged? Why not make heavies spawn significantly slower so that when one goes down you don't have to worry about him being back in 3 seconds? Why not make heavies unable to operate vehicles and require a driver? Why NOT make the HMG overheat fast so that skirmish tactics (with the current meta!) can overheat them and kill them no problem. (Oh wait we did that one -- and yet no one is using skirmish tactics, they expect to stand and deliver . It is honestly incomprehensible to me.
 I agree that there are FAR too many heavies in pretty much every game mode. But providing a quick fix bandaid to the problem will just hurt the heavy players and ultimately the overall gameplay of Dust. Heavies and the HMG will stay on a nerf buff cycle like so many other things. And we can ALL agree that the nerf/buff cycle needs to end. So instead of bandaid lets instead change the root of the problem - the situation. |